1. progress over peacekeeping

This leadership exploration challenges us to examine a critical tension we all face: the choice between maintaining comfortable peace and pursuing necessary progress. Drawing wisdom from Moses' journey with the Israelites through the wilderness, we're reminded that true leadership requires us to take people where they wouldn't naturally go themselves. The concept of being a 'well-differentiated leader' invites us to stay connected to our teams while not being controlled by their emotional reactions to change. We learn that our frustrations aren't enemies but rather divine invitations to initiate transformation. The biblical principle of 'be angry and do not sin' reveals that properly stewarded anger can become holy passion for kingdom advancement. This message calls us to recognize that everything we desire in our leadership sits on the other side of courageous choices, and that unaddressed frustrations eventually morph into burnout or apathy. Most powerfully, we're challenged to understand that when we lead to the lowest common denominator of reaction, we ultimately lose our highest performers and compromise the excellence that reflects God's kingdom.

Transcript

SPEAKER_00 0:00

Welcome to episode one of For the Love of Leadership. This is our new internal leadership podcast that we're doing for the benefit of the people who lead in our church, cathedral. And we're excited about it because we want to invest in people's ongoing growth. Um, obviously, we do all kinds of things with our discipleship pathway, with D groups and all that. But growth is an ongoing thing and something that always needs to be tended to to make sure that we're always getting better. So I'm here with my co-host, Pastor James Crocker. Hello, everyone. Good to see you. It's wonderful to be seen. And we're also here with our paid staff team. Say what's up, everybody. They are our live audience for the love of leadership. And so we'll do a little QA with them at the end. So uh we are going to uh be using a book loosely for a good portion of these episodes, at least to start. The book is called A Failure of Nerve, and it's written by a man named Edward Freeman, Edwin Freeman, um, who has uh passed away. But this book is amazing. It's not like any leadership book that I've ever read. I was trying to think of like how the best way to describe it. It's like if G.K. Chesterton and a family psychologist got together and wrote a book. Uh it's very unique in its approach, not just to the content, uh, which is truly brilliant, but also the writing style. It's not an easy read. No. Um, it does require a lot of digesting. Um, but so much gold in it. And so we're gonna kind of use this as our guide, not necessarily as like a, hey, this episode is on this chapter kind of thing, but just, hey, here's this idea from this book. Let's talk about it as it relates to our leadership.

SPEAKER_01 1:42

Matter of fact, we found I think it was like eight different things in the introduction of this book alone. Yes, that we want to spend.

SPEAKER_00 1:49

That we could talk about.

SPEAKER_01 1:50

It is so rich with great content.

SPEAKER_00 1:52

Exactly. So today we want to talk about this concept of prioritizing progress over peacekeeping. Prioritizing progress over peacekeeping. Now, when I say peacekeeping, obviously we're talking to a lot of Christians right now, and you're maybe immediately connoting that with peacemaking, which Jesus talks about in the positive sense in the Sermon on the Mount. That's not what we're speaking about. Peacemaking has to do with justice. Uh, this is talking about in your leadership, making sure that you are not allowing your need to keep the peace to overrule your responsibility to lead towards progress. Because sometimes leading towards progress actually unsettles the peace for a time being. Um, and if you don't have an appetite or a capacity to deal with that unsettledness, then you won't lead the way that you've been charged to lead, and you'll be prioritizing peacekeeping over progress. But what we want in cathedral leaders are people who prioritize progress over peacekeeping. Exactly. Anything you want to say in regards to that, or shall I keep moving?

SPEAKER_01 2:56

I think we can keep moving. The one thing I would say is that the the way that I look at it is peacekeeping is it's like it's keeping the peace. I'm not changing anything. Whereas peacemaking, it requires us to ruffle some feathers, and that's what leadership is. Right. That's ruffling the right feathers in the right season for the right reasons.

SPEAKER_00 3:12

Yeah, another maybe idea or concept for peacekeeping would be just being okay with the status quo. Right. And the status quo gets you what you're getting, but it doesn't get you where you want to go. So let's talk about um why. Why does this matter? It matters because as a leader, you have vision. Um, and when we say vision, I don't want you to just think like 10-year plan. Oftentimes when I use the word vision just for people's knowledge about me, me personally, I'm usually thinking more like short to midterm goals. And sometimes those could be longer-term goals, but they're always very concrete. Like I had a vision for us to be a multi-site church, we are, and I see us planting more campuses. And I might, you know, say, I want to see us plant a church here, and that's a vision. Or I might have a vision to say, um, I really want us to have a way better hospitality experience for our church and for us to up our coffee game. Great. That's a vision. That's what those are the kinds of things that I'm often thinking of when it comes to vision. It's very concrete. And as a leader, if you're really tuned in to what it is that you're responsible to lead, then you should have a natural bubbling up of vision all the time because you should be asking yourself the question, how can this be better? Um, and this whole idea of prioritizing progress over peacekeeping is important, uh, is because when you have a vision, immediately vision begets, let's say, pushback because it upsets the status quo. So we want to make sure that we're um not allowing our avoidance of conflict to keep us from being visionary people. Exactly.

SPEAKER_01 4:45

Yeah, we're the way that I view us as the kingdom of God is that we're taking ground. In order to take ground, you have to move forward. And so that is inevitably going to take you on a journey from I don't want to rock the boat to this is too important to delay. God has called us to go forward, so we need to move forward. But how do we actually do that?

SPEAKER_00 5:08

Yes, exactly. And so that brings us into the uh key concept that we want to talk about today. Um, there's a couple different ways that we could describe it. The term that uh Friedman uses is being a well-differentiated leader, uh, which is probably a new term for most of us. So I think it's probably important that we uh define what he means by that. By being a well-differentiated or a self-differentiated leader, he means that as the leader, you're able to be in tune with the relationship system of your team, in tune with what they're thinking and feeling, but not controlled by what your team is thinking and feeling. So you're not separate, but you are able to differentiate yourself enough from the thing that you're leading or the group of people that you're leading so that you can think objectively, so that you can think critically, and so that you can make leadership decisions that aren't slowed down or swayed away from uh maybe people's emotional reaction to you initiating change. Self-differentiated leaders are not afraid to initiate change and they're prepared for what that maybe ruffles in the team that they're leading. The term that Freeman uses is sabotage. I don't know if you want to talk about that.

SPEAKER_01 6:27

Sabotage. Yeah. And I think the the reason why this is important is because we don't want to be leaders that are are perceived as being so high up that we're unaware of the team that we're leading and the reality of the circumstance that we're trying to push forward, not in the right season.

SPEAKER_00 6:41

Which is how people kind of often like mistakenly think about being a visionary leader, right? Like maybe they assume just some like kind of tropes, like, oh, a visionary person is is like pretty detached from the thing that they're leading because they're just 40,000 you know, feet up all the time, looking 10 years down the track. Yes. That's not what it means to be a healthy visionary leader. You do need to have engagement with and understanding of the thing that you're leading.

SPEAKER_01 7:02

100%. And like the key thing that comes to mind for me out of the Bible is Moses. Moses leading the people out. On their way out is when they got the gold for their next season, not beforehand. Right. And so the leader, you're not 40,000 feet up going, oh, the team could just do this. I'm there going, no, we have enough of what we need in order to step out and for God to fill the rest of this. Really good. And most people want to wait for 120% of what they need in order to move forward. Yes. And this is where a well-differentiated leader goes, you know what? I think God can do this with 80% of what we need. Right.

SPEAKER_00 7:43

And that could be resources, that could be uh people resources, that could be consensus. A lot of times leaders are uh leading from consensus. So for them, their most valuable resource is does everybody that I lead agree with the thing that I'm trying to initiate? And if they don't feel like they have 100% agreement, aka consensus, then they won't initiate change. They won't initiate vision or growth. Um, and that is the opposite of being a self or well-differentiated leader. Um, and if you're leading that way, you're all you're always gonna be 10 steps behind where you could be, because you're allowing people's emotional reactions to change, which let's just be honest, people always have emotional reactions to change. You're allowing that to dictate where you're willing to um lead your team and the discomfort that you yourself are personally willing to embrace um because that is always uncomfortable when people push back on your initiation. Yes.

SPEAKER_01 8:40

And sabotage, uh, it's kind of like this dramatic word, I feel. Yes. It grabs your attention. Look, it does, it's effective, which is perfect. But the the the point is he's making is that we're we're all human, and most humans uh are averse to change and discomfort. 100%.

SPEAKER_00 8:59

I am. I like my routine, and when that routine gets disrupted by my seven-year-old, I'm unhappy.

SPEAKER_01 9:07

Exactly. And when you're leading teams of people, what can happen is that in the moment where you're trying to step forward, this idea of sabotage comes into play. And it it can come up in many different forms. And what we have to do is be prepared for it. Because when we step into a season of taking people where God wants them to go, naturally it is going to cause them to step into a season of discomfort. Right. And in order to do that, it's going to flare up their flesh, which will cause them to worry, push back, many different things.

SPEAKER_00 9:43

Maybe gossip sometimes. 100%. Right? Even unintentionally, lots of different things can happen. And our our internal need for quote unquote peace as leaders can keep us from rocking the boat, from taking initiative, both things that are necessary in order to um lead our teams towards growth. So I guess kind of the basic idea here is we're talking about courage. 100%. And it's not about being autocratic. It's not about being just someone who gives commands down from on high. Um, there's a difference between consensus and collaboration. We'll talk about that in a moment. Collaboration is important, but collaboration is not do I have everybody's agreement on the thing that I want to do before I initiate the change. Um, that's consensus. Uh, and so we want to be collaborative. We don't want to be autocratic, but at the same time, we have to understand that to lead is to ruffle feathers. One of the best um definitions that I've ever heard of leadership, this has always stuck with me, is to lead is to take people where they otherwise wouldn't go by themselves. Yes. If they would go there by themselves, they wouldn't need a leader. If the thing would get better by itself, if kids team would get better by itself, if South Bay would get better by itself, it wouldn't need a leader. They wouldn't need a Jeff Barnett. But they have a Jeff Barnett because they need to be led towards, just like the people of Israel needed to be led towards freedom. Um, and you think about Israel's journey. There's right, there's all kinds of sabotage going on in that journey. Take us back. Yes. We were better back here. No, you weren't, right? No, we absolutely were. We want to go back. No, you don't know what you're talking about, right? Um, and so the the the test of a leader is the 40-year journey of patience that Moses failed. Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 11:22

Yeah. One of the desires of this um I guess I podcast is to practically like how do we do that? That's the main idea.

SPEAKER_00 11:32

Yep. Um so how do we practice this idea of taking initiative or being differentiated enough?

SPEAKER_01 11:38

Yes. I think the first thing that we want to propose here is this is this idea of identify uh your areas of initiative. Where do you need to take action? Um, what steps am I already postponing that I actually have clarity on? I think for me, when I look at this, the thing that surfaces is what emotions are coming up inside of me before I take this step? Is it fear? Am I afraid of disappointing somebody? Am I this is my big one is am I afraid of like just falling flat on my face in front of other people? Like, what is the reaction that I'm trying to avoid in this moment? Because generally that is an indication that I'm not leading someone where God wants them me to take them because of me not wanting to face this moment of sabotage that could come.

SPEAKER_00 12:37

Yeah. Um, one of the best ways to uncover that is to just take time and reflect upon what are the things that are frustrating you in your leadership. Yes. And those could be really little things. Like you, let's say, you know, I'm a I'm a team leader and my team is very Sunday oriented. And I regularly get to the end of a Sunday and I have a theme to my frustration about the team that I lead. I'm always a little bit perturbed by this little detail, it just doesn't go quite right. Most of the time, people just kind of feel frustrated for you know an hour after church, and then they go out for burgers and fries with their friends and they shake it off. And they don't think about it the entire rest of the day. Yes. And then the next Sunday rolls around and it happens again because they didn't lead, right? They didn't address it. And they're frustrated all over again. Yeah. And those unaddressed frustrations, by the way, eventually turn into uh um burnout or ineffective leadership or apathetic leadership when really those frustrations need to be an invitation into leadership, an invitation into initiative, into change. In fact, um in my last semester of seminary, we were talking about a lot of conversation about the soul, and we were diagnosing human emotion. And the human emotion of anger can either go negatively towards, let's say, in its most extreme uh expression, rage, but positively it goes in the direction of passion. Passion grows out of frustration, passion grows out of uh righteous anger. And so we should take a note from that as leaders and go, what am I frustrated about? And is that an invitation from the Holy Spirit for me to initiate change in this area? Now that change might be, I need to systematize this problem so that it stops occurring. And then to James's point a moment ago, when you think about that and the conversations that are involved in that, does that bring up anxiety in you? Because now I've got to initiate this conversation with this person about the thing that I want them to do and the ball that they're dropping and the reason that it's frustrating me. And now you're playing out that conversation and all the reasons why that conversation is not gonna go well because that person is gonna push back and then they're not gonna be your friend anymore. And now you're valuing, you know, being liked more than you are actually leading, and then they're gonna leave the church, and then you know they're gonna start a blog, and then just hypothetically, you know, maybe. Um but you start playing that game. Yes, and so what is that? You are anticipating to use Freeman's term sabotage, and that's causing you to prioritize peacekeeping over progress. Yeah, even on something small. Now, if you play that out for much bigger things, then you're never leading your team uh anywhere.

SPEAKER_01 15:16

Exactly. Frustration needs to be reframed as not a negative thing, it's data for me to diagnose. Really good. And so, like anger, for instance, reveals where you're misaligned. So don't suppress it. Don't pretend like it doesn't exist. Say that again. Anger reveals where you're misaligned. You're talking about as the leader? As a leader, where I'm frustrated is because I know this could be a better representation of whatever. This coffee experience could be a better representation of our church. Let's just say generally speaking, a better representation of the kingdom of God. Exactly. And so don't suppress that. God puts you in this leadership position for a reason. Steward it. Great. Steward that. Um I I love that anger, if it's stewarded properly, can turn into passion. Because anger itself is not a sin. No, it's a signal. Be angry and do not sin. Exactly. Um and so I think it shows you what you care about. Unprocessed anger will turn into cynicism, though. So if you suppress it enough, you'll eventually just become numb to this. And uh and that will feed into uh the team that you lead. Because whatever you are is going to go down. The question that I like to ask myself is what is this delay of me not wanting to face my fear costing somebody? By me not approaching this, this is actually costing the health of my team. This is costing the representation of the kingdom of God. And this is costing the stewardship of the person that I've been placed at placed over.

SPEAKER_00 16:48

This is really good. When you are leading to the lowest common denominator of reaction, that is ultimately going to cost you your highest performers. Yes. Let me see again. When you're leading to the lowest common denominator of reaction, be it real or imagined, you know, this type of person would respond this way. I'm not prepared to lead through that. So I'm going to lead to that lowest common denominator. Eventually, your highest performing people will exit the team. They'll exit whatever you're leading. Because your highest performing people, they want to be a part of something excellent. They want you to lead. Yes. But if you won't go there, then they'll go elsewhere.

SPEAKER_01 17:23

That's just a fact. 100%. Yeah. Yeah. Someone's going to pay for the cost of our hesitation. It will be you. And it will be a leader.

SPEAKER_00 17:31

So you either pay the price now of the discomfort of leading initiative, or you pay the price later of all kinds of a snow, you know, a snowball effect of negative consequences.

SPEAKER_01 17:40

100%. I think this is a good idea for everyone who's listening and here as well in the room. Write down three things that could have the biggest impact on your team or organization that you lead. Great.

SPEAKER_00 17:54

That's another maybe category of approaching how to figure out where to take initiative. Yes. One category is paying attention to your frustrations. Another category is just to have a practice, let's say quarterly, to sit down three to four times a year and go what two to three things would make the biggest impact. Yes. We just recently did this with all of our team directors and location pastors as we're look looking forward to uh the year in terms of what do we want to invest in that's going to yield fruit growth for our church. And that's that kind of exercise. Hey, what's going to make the biggest impact? Write those things down and go, you know what, I should take initiative there. Yes. You want to say more about it?

SPEAKER_01 18:29

Yeah, I just think you can keep it tactical. High impact is not always high effort. So sometimes it is. If you want the highest impact, it could be simply having a conversation with one person on your team. Right. Versus rewriting your entire handbook to justify that person's existence within your team. Yes. Like which one is high impact versus high impact.

SPEAKER_00 18:52

That's so true. Sometimes we will sooner do 40 hours of work to accommodate the dysfunction rather than having one uncomfortable conversation.

SPEAKER_01 19:01

Exactly. And when you force yourself to sit down, you go, okay, I can't keep kicking this can down the down the field. Um and so especially if you're new to this, you might sit down quarterly and quarter two, it's the exact same three frustrations. Yeah. And you go, okay, I am the person that has the power to change this. Yes.

SPEAKER_00 19:19

Yes. Okay, great. But I really love that. Let's just make sure that we're differentiating between frustration and just good old sitting down having vision. Yes. Right? Like with a notebook and a pen and going, what one thing this quarter can I invest in that is going to make the biggest impact on us fulfilling the mission of cathedral and then getting clear on that. Um, and then beginning the process of what it looks like to actually initiate vision, whether that be birthed out of frustration or birthed out of ideation. So let's talk about that process as we round the bend here and try to keep this to our 25 to 30 minute goal. Um, beginning the process. So I have a frustration, I have clarity, I have an idea. What does it look like to actually start initiating?

SPEAKER_01 20:08

Yeah, I think first and foremost, to begin this process, you need to sit down with the people who it affects. This is where we get into the collaboration piece. Exactly. You've got to invite them into what you see, ask them questions, collaborate on the final goal of where you're trying to go, not so much the process of how to get there. Um and and sometimes that goal will sometimes it'll morph a little bit, but for the most part, you're inviting people hey, this is where I feel like God is taking taking us. This is where I feel like we need to change, or here's something that I've identified in you. How can we move towards that? Bring them into the conversation.

SPEAKER_00 20:51

Yep. I want to go to San Francisco. How do you want to get there? Let's get some ideas.

SPEAKER_01 20:57

Exactly.

SPEAKER_00 20:58

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 20:58

Yeah. Yeah. Leadership isn't dictating the future. It's just inviting people into hey, here's where I feel like God is taking us. How do we get there? Help us get there.

SPEAKER_00 21:06

Yep.

SPEAKER_01 21:06

Because that's what they're there for. They're your team.

SPEAKER_00 21:10

Yep. So you want to invite, sit down with the relevant people and begin that conversation of collaboration. And again, this is not about consensus building. You're not asking them permission to lead the team somewhere. You're saying, I have a vision. I think that we can be better in this way. What do you guys think about that? Do you see what I see? And how do you think we can get there together? Those are the kinds of questions that you want to be asking.

SPEAKER_01 21:34

Yeah, exactly. And this is actually where it does get hard is how how do I invite people into collaboration and it doesn't morph into consensus? Because I can't lead people by committee. There has to be a leader that takes the step. Um, this is something that I've been working on myself, and I I've come up with kind of like three different things. That really helped me here. Great. Um, number one, I I want to name clearly what I'm seeing. Here's the gap, here's the opportunity, here's not what's working, here's what's not working. Secondly, I want to state a clear direction. So this is where the vision piece comes comes into it. Okay. Is I want to move us towards this. And then I've now stated my why, how I've arrived here, and what I believe the solution is. And I'm inviting them, hey, help me refine the pathway towards this. Great. So I'm not reversing this, I'm just inviting people into where I believe God is taking us.

SPEAKER_00 22:33

So if I were just like off the top of my head, think of a very practical example here that I'm just aware has been part of your thinking in the last 12 months. This could be something as simple as there's a gap in how we are hosting guests or even just people in general when they come into our services on Sunday mornings. And getting seated is not welcoming and hospitable. Um, the way that like the seating kind of spread often falls organically is not preferable to us. So you're noticing a gap. And then going to whoever that leader is and saying, I believe we need to move towards X, which is better hosting, more intentional seating, yada, yada, yada. Do you see that? Yeah, yeah, I see that. Okay, how do we get there? Yeah. And there's there's the collaboration piece.

SPEAKER_01 23:22

Exactly. And that's a great example, right? Because that would be including uh both our wonderful Allie and um our facilities director. And so Tanner comes up to me three weeks later after we present this vision, and he goes, Pastor James, I've started removing and putting seats in and out after in between services because I've realized this is the average attendance of this service and this is the average attendant of that service. I didn't think about that at all.

SPEAKER_00 23:45

He's not taking ownership.

SPEAKER_01 23:46

He's now, I'm I'm now involved in accomplishing this vision. And you, for those of you that have been in Highland Park, the 1130 experience because of that feels way better, way better. Dramatically different. Um so I I was clear on what I desired, and I let them help me get to where I wanted to go. Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 24:04

Yes, really good. Yeah, I have these two tattoos on my forearms. Um, one of them is a compass and one of them is a shipwheel. Um and I I don't ever never never talk about this, but that's because the compass stands for charting the course and the shipwheel stands for steering the ship. Because both those things are necessary. Like I want to chart the course to where we're going, and I want to steer the ship to how it is that we're gonna get there. And for me, in terms of how I lead, both of those things are collaborative, but the steering the ship, especially, is collaborative. Yeah. Um, and we need to have both of those strengths in our wheelhouse as leaders. Yeah, that's kind of cool.

SPEAKER_01 24:38

Even your wheel has multiple places for multiple hands.

SPEAKER_00 24:40

Yeah, there you go.

SPEAKER_01 24:41

Yeah, I love that.

SPEAKER_00 24:43

Um, okay, cool. So let's talk about some obstacles really quick. We've already hinted at this throughout the podcast, so I don't think we need to spend a lot of time on this. Um, but let's just really quickly hit what this might look like um in terms of as we're leading initiative. What does it look like for sabotage to happen?

SPEAKER_01 25:06

One of the key things that um I I think will help a leader here is just realizing that the people that you lead have insecurities. You have insecurities. We all have them. Why wouldn't they have insecurities? When you lead people through change, generally sabotage just comes up as people's insecurities rising to the surface. Maybe it's them thinking that they're they don't believe that they are the leader to take you to that, to take the whole experience to the next level. And so you've got to lead them through what you see in them. Right. Maybe it's that makes them uncomfortable and they just they're really happy with the status quo and they don't want their seven-year-old interrupting their their Bible reading time in the morning. Um, let alone you telling them that they now have to get there 45 minutes earlier because we're launching a new service. Right. And so just expect that. Yes. Because we lead humans.

SPEAKER_00 25:56

Resistance is a sign you're leading.

SPEAKER_01 25:58

Yes.

SPEAKER_00 25:59

If you're not experiencing resistance, you're not leading.

SPEAKER_01 26:02

Exactly. Straight up. And it doesn't mean that change is wrong. Right. It shouldn't make you second guess. It means that something familiar is just being disrupted and people will respond to that. Yeah. So I think one of the keys there is just stay calm. Because as much as anxiety spreads, so does steadfastness. So does stillness. Yes. So does steadfast.

SPEAKER_00 26:23

That's that self-differentiation. Yes. Right. If you're caught up in the anxiety of the relationship system of your team, then you're going to contribute to that anxiety. One of the things we've talked about as a paid staff team is be the person where the ping ball, the ping-pong ball of anxiety can't bounce off of. Yeah, exactly. You just want to be steady, you want to be present to in a non-anxious way. And the way to do that is you need to be able to view yourself as in independent from your team so that you can remain in that place of where are we going? How are we going to get there? Okay, let me be that visionary presence to the team so that I can just keep calmly leading them through change.

SPEAKER_01 27:00

Exactly. And I think uh another thing I would just say is really important is don't clap back. So being a good leader is when that per is going, hey, I'm leading this person through change, I'm expecting their insecurities to flare up. It's not a personal attack on you.

SPEAKER_00 27:17

Exactly.

SPEAKER_01 27:17

It's their flesh trying to deal with it. Yep. And um you don't have to internalize that because reactivity only escalates things. It's like Pastor Jake said in a sermon, I think it was two weeks ago. Like, what did that tweet actually accomplish? That aggressive thing that you wrote on someone, that comment that you left. It doesn't do it. And the same as in your leadership. Yes. When they say something, don't go roll the sleeves up and get ready to keep fighting. It's like, no, stay calm.

SPEAKER_00 27:48

Yep.

SPEAKER_01 27:48

Don't attack back.

SPEAKER_00 27:49

Yep. Really good. Let's give some examples really quickly. Um, talk about this story number two here.

SPEAKER_01 27:57

Okay, so we had somebody serving faithfully, but they weren't necessarily fruitful. Nothing was wrong. Uh good attitude, yes, good heart, committed, loved church. But deep down, I knew that the leadership role that they were in and their gift set was not matching. Right. This is one of those things that was causing me frustration. Uh, and if I'm honest, I had known it for quite a while. Uh the delay wasn't uh it wasn't a clarity thing, it was a comfort for me because I didn't want to wade into the water of an awkward conversation. Shock and awe is coming across you, but I am also human. I didn't want them to feel, I didn't want them to feel discouraged. I wanted it to peace, keep that peace. Um, but I realized that it was postponing progress. Right. And so finally I sat them down. I said, here's the strengths I see that you have. And here's a better lane that I have for you. I was honest with them. I didn't sugarcoat it. I was very clear. It was marginally uncomfortable as all of these things are, nowhere near as uncomfortable as what I thought it would be. And here, here's what happened. They are now flourishing. Yeah. They are now serving in a way that energizes them. The people that they lead now versus the people that they led before are it's a wildly different experience for them. Momentum is at their back. And I think what it did is it unlocked a healthy, lifelong way of serving Jesus using the gifts that they've been given. Um, but it was that moment where I had to go, do I want to have this conversation? No, but I need to have this conversation and shift it into that.

SPEAKER_00 29:37

Yep. It's good. We have, I think, five or six examples here that we could give, but I just want to respect our time. This applies from the broadest level vision. Yes. We had to go through this process of prioritizing progress over peacekeeping a couple of years ago when we made the shift to the Pace Center model as a church. Something that I knew in my heart for honestly several years that we needed to move move towards. Not that I would have had the language for it, but I just knew that there was a change that we had to make. Um and so grateful for God's timing and all of that and and what we're experiencing now as a church. But also when I look back, man, I wish wish I had the courage to lead into that change a couple of years prior. Um, so no regrets, but just wow, a lesson learned.

SPEAKER_01 30:19

Yes.

SPEAKER_00 30:20

And this can apply all the way down to the most um um like the smallest example as well, whether that's just coaching a an unhealthy character thing in a team member. Um, and then everywhere in between it goes up and down that ladder. So um lots of fruit on the other side of our courage. I often say to people that everything you desire in your leadership is on the other side of the courageous choices that you need to make.

SPEAKER_01 30:44

Yeah. So yeah. Yeah, the growth that we desire is it's sitting on the other side of that uncomfortable moment that we know we need to approach.

SPEAKER_00 30:52

So we want to take initiative. One of the ways that we can do that is pay attention to our frustrations. Another way we can do it is just to sit down and ideate about what's going to make the biggest impact to the overall mission of the church. Again, we always want to be connected to that, not just thinking independently from that. Um, and when you have that, begin to initiate conversation, collaborate with relevant people, the people that have stake, uh have skin in the game, right? Not just anybody, it's not just gathering opinions. It's people who can help you effect change. Um and from those conversations, you'll be surprised. So many great ideas will come. And as soon as you just start taking steps imperfectly with mess, yes, you know, experiencing resistance and sabotage, but you just lead uh on the other side of that six months, 12 months down the line, you really do experience grapefruit. Yes. So that's our first episode of For The Love of Leadership, everybody. Um yeah. Good stuff. We don't have time for questions, so we want to respect our time. So we'll do questions next week, but maybe you have some questions and you can reach out to your team director because they've heard a lot of this content already, and they will be a great resource for you. Wonderful. Amen. Amen. Bye.