2. 5 signs your team is lead by anxiety

In this episode, Pastors Jake and James explore what happens inside a team, ministry, or church when a leader begins to truly lead—take initiative, cast vision, and move people forward. Drawing from Edwin Friedman and grounded in Scripture, they unpack how anxiety, reactivity, and resistance often rise when change comes, and how a Christlike, self‑differentiated leader can respond.

You’ll hear how good leadership will always disturb the status quo, much like Jesus did (Luke 12:51; John 6:60–66), and why that disruption is often a necessary part of growth (James 1:2–4; Romans 5:3–5).

Through a biblical lens, they walk through four common symptoms in unhealthy systems:

• Reactivity – when people respond from emotion instead of wisdom (Proverbs 14:29; Proverbs 29:11; Ephesians 4:26–27) and the joy and play God designed us for (Nehemiah 8:10; Psalm 16:11) begin to disappear.
• Herding – when teams prioritize comfort and fitting in over obedience and mission (Galatians 1:10; Romans 12:2; Exodus 23:2), organizing around “what feels good” rather than “what is right” (Micah 6:8; Ephesians 4:14–15).
• Blame Displacement – when the focus shifts to “them” instead of “me” (Genesis 3:11–13; Matthew 7:3–5; James 4:1–2), avoiding responsibility instead of allowing hardship to mature us (Hebrews 12:5–11; 1 Peter 4:12–13).
• Quick-Fix Mentality – when leaders chase efficiency and instant relief instead of long obedience and real transformation (Jeremiah 6:14; 2 Timothy 4:3–4; Luke 9:23; Luke 14:27–33).

They also address:

• The call to be a non-anxious, steady presence in the middle of pressure (Philippians 4:6–7; Colossians 3:15; Isaiah 26:3).
• Why true change in a system or relationship often begins with one person deciding to show up differently (Romans 12:18; Matthew 5:9; Galatians 5:22–23).
• How to name tension in the room the way God does (Genesis 3:9–11; John 4:16–18), reducing fear and building trust.
• The power of questions, patience, and slowing down before responding (James 1:19–20; Proverbs 18:13; Proverbs 20:5).
• Rewarding and celebrating healthy, faith-filled responses as part of discipleship (Hebrews 10:24–25; Romans 12:10–11).

This message invites every leader—whether in church, family, workplace, or small group—to examine their own patterns, refuse to be ruled by group anxiety, and follow Jesus’ example as the Good Shepherd (John 10:11–16) who leads people through discomfort into growth, maturity, and joy in the Holy Spirit (Romans 14:17).

Transcript

SPEAKER_04 0:00

What's up, everybody? Want to take a moment and welcome you to a new internal podcast we are doing called For the Love of Leadership. This is a podcast hosted by myself and Pastor James Crocker, and we're making this available to all the members of Cathedral. The reason we're doing this podcast is because we want to help promote the value of leadership in our church. We want to help you even change the way that you think about yourself as somebody who is worth developing as a leader and to help you grow in your love for your appreciation of the power of good leadership happening in your life. And so we're going to be sending out these episodes weekly on Thursdays, most likely. And we hope that you'll tune in and allow yourself to be challenged and through that, allow yourself to grow into all that God has for you. And uh, we're very excited. So enjoy the show. We'll see you around. Welcome back to For the Love of Leadership. Say what's up, everyone. It's good to be back, week two. We started off last week talking about um this idea of taking initiative and how when we do that, we are practicing uh what one author, Edwin Friedman, calls self-differentiation, where you're able to be in the mix of a relationship system like a team or maybe a small business, um, a ministry, a church. Uh, you're able to be in the mix of that, but also as the leader, you're able to differentiate yourself from that relationship system enough to be able to get vision and see where it is that you need to be leading your people. And one of the things that we started to touch on is how that can kind of rock the equilibrium, mess with the status quo, and that can bring up all kinds of things in people because we're emotional beings and we often uh react before we respond. And we feel things before we necessarily think critically about things. Yep. Or maybe we do think critically and we have questions or concerns or whatever, because that's the result of leadership is you kind of agitate a bit. Yes. And that's that's actually a good thing, not a bad thing.

SPEAKER_02 2:08

100%. And if if you did listen and you started to put these things into action, then you would have taken uh what we summed up last week as initiative. And when you take initiative, the people that you lead are gonna respond, like we talked about. And so we thought this week what could be kind of cool is to talk through well, what happens when we take initiative? We're gonna lead people through, they're gonna react. And there's two people in this scenario there's the leader and then the team that they lead. And so we wanted to start by focusing on how do we as leaders show up as we lead people through change, taking initiative, and moving forward.

SPEAKER_04 2:44

Yes. Amen. So should we hop into these uh four or five examples of uh what happens when we take initiative, or were you thinking of going somewhere else? We're flying by the seat of our pants on this podcast. I like that. I like that.

SPEAKER_02 2:58

I think before we do that, it's um what Freeman in this book talks a lot about is emotion and how this comes up, these even anxiety and people responding out of their emotions and how as we as leaders need to be self-differentiated. And so I think it's important because everyone has definitions of what emotions are. And so before we dive into this, I've kind of taken Friedman's definition of it, and I wanted to kind of uh put it before us so that we know when we talk about this, we're talking about this type of emotional. Okay, great. So when he's talking about emotional energy moving through a group of people, um, he's talking about when anxiety rises because of what leadership brings, which is pushing people forward. And so when people feel pressure or uncertainty or conflict, that's when anxiety or emotion starts to spread through. And that manifests in different ways defensiveness, blame, seriousness, over control. And what we're talking about is a mature leader doesn't ignore those emotions inside of a group. They don't get swept up in them either. They stay steady in the system until the emotions, the anxiety level around them starts to subside because of the presence that they bring.

SPEAKER_04 4:11

Yes, exactly. Is that fair? Yes, absolutely. So let we want to categorize those things and talk through uh four different symptoms that we can look for as leaders. When we begin to lead, when we take initiative, here's maybe some things that we can expect. And we're not talking about these because we think that all of the teams in our church are prone to like a lack of health or anything like that. No, everyone's doing this, Pastor Jake. Everyone is doing this right now. But but but we are gonna encounter these things because we're human. Yes. Right? And so we want to uh be able to be aware of it so that we know how to lead through it. So the first thing that Friedman talks about um is the symptom of reactivity. Reactivity is what happens when individuals or maybe even a whole team starts to just respond out of control uh or maybe out of ungoverned emotion to initiative or to an event that's taken place. And they're kind of just reacting off of one another's energy. The analogy that we've kind of used uh privately as a staff when we talk about this thing is a ping pong ball, just bouncing all around. Um, and it never stops bouncing because everybody's engaging in that reaction.

SPEAKER_02 5:15

Yes. And one of the ways that you can uh see that this is happening inside of the team you leave is um is when pessimism starts to increase within the team. And when that starts to happen, you actually start to lose a little bit of the joy. At Cathedral, one of the things that I love about our church is that we have so much fun. We love to have fun, which is a very holy thing. A hundred percent. Yeah. But when anxiety rises in a system, when people are reactive, you can see that humor starts to disappear, which means that then curiousness starts to disappear, which means everything starts to feel really heavy. And so the the the tricky thing about reactivity is that um what what happens is it's actually a passive withdrawal from wanting to move forward because you start to lose the desire because it's not fun anymore. It's not fun. It's not fun. Yeah, I don't want to be a part of something that's not fun.

SPEAKER_04 6:11

Yeah. Friedman actually uh makes the point that from like a biological standpoint, mammals are designed for play.

SPEAKER_02 6:19

Yes.

SPEAKER_04 6:20

That humans are actually designed for play.

SPEAKER_02 6:22

Yes.

SPEAKER_04 6:22

Uh versus other kinds of creatures like snakes don't play. They're inherently serious creatures. Yes. No wonder the devil shows up as a serpent. Blame. Yeah. 100%. Like we think holy, I was actually talking about this the other day uh on another podcast. Um, C.S. Lewis uh defines holy from a heavenly perspective as fun. We think holy is synonymous with serious and like being subdued. But actually, if God is love, then God is inherently fun.

SPEAKER_02 6:52

Yes.

SPEAKER_04 6:52

And for us to um to lead well uh means that we need to meet the symptom of reactivity with a sense of uh, and this is what it maybe looks like in in these circumstances to be self-differentiated is to be able to resist, don't be a landing place for the ping pong ball, but rather be the leader who can bring fun back into the equation.

SPEAKER_02 7:12

Yes, yeah. That's very good. Yeah. Fun is fun is very important. Um, so we don't want to be uh reactive. Um and another one of the indicators is what's called herding, which is kind of the byproduct, these kind of build on one another.

SPEAKER_04 7:26

Yeah, they kind of hurting is the byproduct of when reactivity goes unchecked.

SPEAKER_02 7:29

Exactly. And so hurting occurs when individuals stop thinking independently and they just begin to move with the emotional flow of how everybody else is doing. And this is brutal. Um because this is when people start to prioritize belonging over clarity of mission. Instead of asking what's right, they start asking what people in the group prefer to do. Meaning, this is an area where leadership starts to die and the group starts to move.

SPEAKER_04 7:56

They start to grab, they start to gravitate around good feelings.

SPEAKER_02 7:59

Yes.

SPEAKER_04 8:00

Yes. What's going to be the most therapeutic versus what's going to be the most um progressive, the most groundbreaking?

SPEAKER_02 8:07

Yes. Yeah. And this is a hard one because when this takes root as a leader, your job is to move people forward. And it's really hard to do that if they're stuck in consensus around what's going to make everybody feel good rather than what is the mission that we're going after and how do we move forward.

SPEAKER_04 8:22

Which inherently is organizing yourself around immaturity. That's that's the fundamental point that State makes. When you when you allow the priority or the value of good feelings to be preeminent, you are organizing yourself around immaturity because it's an immature person who prioritizes what feels good versus what's right or what's required. And so, as leaders, part of being self-differentiated is to go, is to be able to recognize oh, this value of we just want to feel good and we don't want to say the uncomfortable truth, or we don't want to take the uncomfortable step, is actually just uh us manifesting our immaturity. Yes. And sub and submitting to immaturity versus taking the initiative to lead. Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 9:06

So and the byproduct of this is that over time, uh, the price that is paid is that you have a team that's overly cautious and innovation slows to a halt. To a halt. 100%. So now we're stuck in status quo. Yes. Which is the opposite of what we're trying to do.

SPEAKER_04 9:23

Friedman actually makes the really profound point that this is its own form of tyranny. This is its own form of totalitarianism. And it what he says, this amazing statement, he says, this proves that weak leadership can create a totalitarian society just as much as autocratic leadership can. So, in other words, a dictator, right? So when you're weak and you don't lead, then all of a sudden immaturity becomes the leader. And that now governs the team. So it's not a matter of uh if leadership is happening, it's a matter of what is leading and who is leading. Because if you, as the leader, if you bow to this hurting mentality, to this reactivity, leadership will emerge. It will just be the wrong kind. Yeah, exactly. Herding then gives way to the third one, which is called blame displacement. Um, he uses the analogy of the immune system a lot for this. So he talks about how uh the way that our bodies is designed by God to function is not to eradicate all of the problems out there, but rather to have a strong internal response to the problems. We have an immune system, and the goal is actually we want to be exposed to hardship because that's what strengthens the immune system. But in a culture like ours, often, and Friedman does write like a prophet. He is, he's like the sons of Isakar. He understood the times, right? Um, he could see the signs, and so he's talking about kind of our overly therapeutic culture where we prioritize feeling good on the inside more than being challenged, perhaps. Um, and that's actually counterintuitive to the way that we're actually designed to function. We are not designed to function on the basis of eliminating all the hardship. We're designed to function on the basis of growing through hardship. Yes. But we aren't able to do that when we start displacing blame. When we say, actually, the problem's all out there. The problem is your leadership, the problem is this idea, the problem is them, the problem is blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah. Rather than having the maturity to go, what's going on in here?

SPEAKER_02 11:22

Yes. Right? Yes. Yeah, that it's really that you named it.

SPEAKER_04 11:25

For those of you who are listening, I was gesturing to my heart when I said in here.

SPEAKER_02 11:30

Blame disfaction shows up as exactly what you're talking about, criticizes, criticizes individuals. It uh it causes you to look upwards to your leader and use them as the scapegoat as to why you and your team that you're leading are not being successful or moving forward. Um, and it redirects from looking inward at what you can do to what everyone else is not doing for you. Um, and it is, it's interesting that it's called blame displacement. And I love that he uses the body because what it reminded me of is that I went to the doctor and I was complaining about hitting constant headaches. And I was telling him, I'm taking like a Tylenol every day. And the the doctor said to me, You your body doesn't have a Tylenol deficiency. It's not that your body's not creating enough acetametaphine.

SPEAKER_03 12:11

Right.

SPEAKER_02 12:11

It's that you're not drinking enough water.

SPEAKER_03 12:13

Right.

SPEAKER_02 12:13

And so, just like blame displacement, it relieves pressure, like my Tylenol does for the moment, but it does not address the root cause of the issue on your team. And so that's the that's the trick that we fall into with blame displacement is that there's a, there's a moment of, man, this feels better. But this is not fixing the problem.

SPEAKER_04 12:31

Yes, that's so true. Sometimes we might feel that in a in a team meeting. You know, it can be easy for uh team meetings that are supposed to be about problem solving, they can um uh devolve into complaining sessions. Yes. And that's just human. Like we've all been in meetings that kind of go that direction. Um, and as leaders, we got to recognize, oh, this has become a pro a pro a complaining session rather than a problem solving uh session or a brainstorming session. And we need to have the self-differentiation enough to recognize that and go, ah, actually, what we're doing right now is we are practicing blame displacement. We are looking out there rather than going, what can we change personally? What are we responsible for in order to affect positive change?

SPEAKER_02 13:14

Yeah. Which is essentially how you cure like anxiety is I don't feel like I'm in control. So if everything is external, how could I possibly feel better? Right. But I can acknowledge the external factors and go, okay, even if I can't change that, what can I change inside of this team? How can I lead this team forward? Yep. Um, and in doing that, you differentiate yourself.

SPEAKER_04 13:35

Yep. Let's talk about number four, a quick fix mentality. You kind of touched on this a moment ago with the Tylenol analogy, but this is basically looking for looking for comfort versus looking to become mature. Um and so we see this happen in societies really broadly. And uh that's what I love about this book. He's not just talking about uh uh ministries, he's talking about uh we see these things happen in from the smallest unit of a family to the largest unit of a political structure in a nation. 100%. Yeah.

SPEAKER_03 14:02

Yeah.

SPEAKER_04 14:03

And so the quick fix mentality um often drives people's own choice of the leader they choose to follow or um the politician they choose to subscribe to because they're looking for the most immediate gratification to the problems and the pressures that they feel.

SPEAKER_02 14:17

Yeah. This is um this is my personal uh one that I can fall into, is the quick fix mentality. And it's because doing a bunch of small things and accomplishing them feels really good. Feels good. I'm doing, I'm, I'm, I'm, I'm going somewhere.

SPEAKER_03 14:32

Yep.

SPEAKER_02 14:33

The reality is I'm on a treadmill. I'm going absolutely nowhere. Um, and that's the problem with quick fix, is that it doesn't do any long-term growth for you. It's only short-term gratification. Um, and to me, it reminds me of discipleship. Like teaching someone how to follow Jesus takes a short time? No, it takes a lifetime. Right. And so, why would the way that we lead people be different than the way that we disciple people? Those things go hand in hand. And so when we're leading, don't look for the quick fix. That's rarely gonna work.

SPEAKER_04 15:02

I've often said over the last several years, this has been one of my main revelations post-COVID, is that efficiency is often the enemy of ministry. When we're looking for the fastest way to get something done, it is almost always, not always, but almost always, not the right thing to do. It's not gonna actually produce fruit.

SPEAKER_02 15:22

Yeah, 100%.

SPEAKER_04 15:24

So let's talk about. So when these things go unaddressed, um, reactivity, hurting, blame displacement, quick fix mentalities, those things operate in such a way that unless, unless a leader is willing to take a stand, they will abdicate leadership.

SPEAKER_02 15:41

Yes.

SPEAKER_04 15:41

Right? Because when you try to lead in a really reactive environment, for example, it's not fun. There's people are reacting to your leadership. And so what happens a lot of the time is leaders they go, it's not worth it. I'm not gonna bother. And that's when you kind of flip over into maintenance mode, right? You're just babysitting, or you just take your hands off the wheel altogether and you're uh you're being unfaithful with what it is that you've been asked to lead. So these things can produce what uh what the title of the book uh talks about, a failure of nerve in leadership. But at the same time, a failure of nerve in leadership can also create these things. It's a it's a it's a bit cyclical. Uh the four lead to the to the fifth example of a failure of nerve, but also it can go the other way around as well. So we want to talk about how do we break that cycle?

SPEAKER_02 16:25

A hundred percent.

SPEAKER_04 16:26

What are some things that we can do?

SPEAKER_02 16:27

Yeah, the the moment that you reach at this point in time is do I manage the pressure or do I lead through it? And of course, we as cathedral leaders, we want to lead through it. And so then the question is, how do I do this?

SPEAKER_04 16:41

I think for starters, recognizing that you deciding is that is actually going to uh affect change.

SPEAKER_02 16:47

Yes.

SPEAKER_04 16:47

So he uses the example of a marriage, profound example. He says it does not take two people to change a marriage for the better. It takes one. It takes one person who's willing to become self-differentiated to determine that they are going to stop participating in the reactivity. Yes. They're gonna stop displacing blame, they're gonna stop reaching for quick fix uh solutions, and they themselves are going to show up different, right? Now, obviously, the other person in the marriage has to respond, but it just takes the the first person going, I'm gonna change. I'm gonna take responsibility over me, and that alone is going to impact. So oftentimes the mistake that we make is we convince ourselves that our leadership doesn't matter. When in fact, it absolutely does. Yes. Now, your initiative, your leadership might cause the least mature of the group to opt out. And sometimes, we've talked to talked about this as a staff. Sometimes that's the reason we don't lead. Is because we're afraid that if I lead, if I take a stand, if I stick to my guns and say, no, this is where we're going, then some people might leave. But what would you rather? An unhealthy team that is overly populated with unhealth, or a healthy team that has some pruning to start, but then in time starts to attract and start to bear healthy fruit.

SPEAKER_02 18:02

Yeah. And I find that not only just for yourself to name this, but actually to when you're leading in these moments, you are not the only person that has emotional awareness in the room.

unknown 18:12

Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 18:13

Everybody feels the tension. Yes. And anxiety grows and ambiguity. And so if you if you as a leader pretend like it doesn't exist, you're losing trust with your team in that moment. Exactly. And so one of the most stabilizing things Especially your high performers. Yes. One of the most stabilizing things you can do is just simply name it.

SPEAKER_03 18:31

Yep.

SPEAKER_02 18:31

So instead of avoiding tension, just say, I can feel, I can tell that this change is making people feel uncomfortable.

SPEAKER_03 18:37

Yes. And that's okay.

SPEAKER_02 18:39

That's okay.

SPEAKER_03 18:39

That's human to respond that way to change.

SPEAKER_02 18:42

Yes, that makes sense. This is the direction we need to go. So let's talk about how we can move forward. Name the tension. Remove, I I love this. Like some things have power until you name them. And then you name it, you can remove the power. Totally.

SPEAKER_04 18:54

We've all experienced that in our own lives with things like sin.

SPEAKER_02 18:57

Yes. Or character flaws. Yes.

SPEAKER_04 18:58

When we name them, all of a sudden they don't seem like the big bad boogeyman that's you know undefeatable.

SPEAKER_02 19:04

Yes. Um and in in a room where people are starting to write their own stories in their head and you can feel the anxiety rising or the tension rising, calm clarity will lower that and will provide emotional reinsurance to your team in that moment. So just name it.

SPEAKER_04 19:20

One other thing I would say as kind of a next step beyond that. So once you've decided you're going to lead, the next thing that you can do is you can start to reward good behavior. Love that. Because there are going to be people, there are high performers on your team who are going to respond positively to your leadership. Positively doesn't mean perfectly, by the way. They won't respond perfectly to your leadership, but they will show positive signs in response to your leadership. It is a good thing as a leader to recognize that and to reward that. Right? It's any parent knows this. Like the most effective parenting isn't just in the punishment for the wrongdoing, it's in the reward for doing what's right. Exactly. Um, and we all need that. We all need positive reinforcement when we're going in the right direction. And one of the one of the um more courageous things that you can do as a leader is to have the courage to reward even publicly. Yes. Hey, I just want you guys all to know I saw so-and-so, they did this. That's so celebr. That's that's celebration worthy. Let's celebrate that. Like even little things like that can go a long way.

SPEAKER_02 20:16

Yeah, you, I think it's you, I'm putting you on the spot here, might have shared with me that there's a psychological uh connection to positive reinforcement over negative. Is that correct? I feel like you learned that. Probably not. Probably not. Probably somebody smart that you were talking to. Amazing.

SPEAKER_04 20:32

You were probably talking to Dr. Eric Sherman.

SPEAKER_02 20:34

Yeah, I was probably talking to that's 100% right. Um, another thing I want to talk about that we can do as a leader is I find more often than not, out of these, one of the things that most people have the proclivity as a leader to fall into is matching people's reactivity. And so in that, this is something that I'm like they react, and so I react. Yeah, your team is reacting, so you just meet them with what they've got.

SPEAKER_04 20:59

Which could look like getting defensive, classic. A hundred percent. Maybe you're more prone to go passive. Yes. Maybe you kind of go silent.

SPEAKER_02 21:05

Yes. That's another form of reactivity. A hundred percent. And so, how do you in that moment what is a I love systems? Like, what is something that you can put into place to help you in that moment? And so for me, I want to be slow to respond and I want to be quick to understand. And so what I like to do is I like to just intentionally practice a pause. I will physically fill my lungs with breath. I will ask, I will think of more questions to ask, and I will reflect on people's responses before I respond to them.

SPEAKER_04 21:41

So good. Because oftentimes we're reacting to a problem we don't actually understand.

SPEAKER_02 21:44

Yes.

SPEAKER_04 21:45

We haven't taken the time to discover what's this person really feeling, what's really the issue.

SPEAKER_02 21:50

Yes.

SPEAKER_04 21:51

Um, and we we spin our wheels a lot of the time trying to problem solve or trying to respond to things that aren't actually what they seem.

SPEAKER_02 21:58

Yeah. And that frustrates me. Like, have you been? In a conversation with someone where you start talking and they give you the answer before you even finish the sentence, it just drives you nuts. And you want to just go, stop talking. I haven't even finished what I'm talking about. So sorry that I've done that to you. We all do it to each other. It's part of our cultural existence in the Western world right now, is that we're so mentally tuned to fixing things quickly. And so the moment that you take a breath and you slow down, a leader that slows down a room will regulate the room. And so your nervous system becomes the emotional thermostat for the room that you're in. That's right. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah.

SPEAKER_04 22:35

And that's a challenge, but it's something that we are all capable of doing. We are all capable of taking a beat. I love that advice. I think that's really wise because physiologically, you are reacting. Yes. So having the discipline of just being able to take a beat, allowing your mind to catch up to what you're experiencing and then engaging in the conversation in a productive and healthy way. They're not going to meet you in that health immediately. Yes. But I am we've all experienced this as leaders when you practice this kind of thing, eventually they start to match your tone, your pace, your rhythm, and hopefully even your mindset. Yes. So 100%. Let's take a few moments for some questions. We didn't have time for questions last week. We've got about five minutes left. So if you guys have any questions from uh either last week or this week, let's do that. We can chat. We can pass the mic around.

SPEAKER_00 23:22

I think it's not that I'm wondering if the vision is too big to bring someone into, but how do we as leaders help to slow ourselves down when someone when we're experiencing pushback?

SPEAKER_04 23:32

How do we as leaders slow ourselves down when we are experiencing pushback? I would reframe the question, because it's it's not necessarily the answer that you need to slow down. There could be other, that might be a solution, but there might be other solutions as well. So I would say the first thing is don't automatically assume that you're moving too quickly. There could be other things. Maybe I'm not being clear. Maybe I haven't invited my team into the collaboration that's necessary to talk about how we're going to accomplish this. So I didn't just determine the what, I've also determined the how. And that's what they're really having trouble with. There are, I don't know, probably half a dozen other things that you can consider when you're experiencing resistance. It's not always just the pace at which you're wanting to move. Is that helpful? Would you guys have other thoughts that you would offer?

SPEAKER_02 24:35

Questions are your greatest friend in this moment. And um I'm always humbled to remember that when God was walking in the cool of the night, he asked questions. The one who knows everything asked questions. Where are you? Who told you you were naked? And um in that moment as a leader, slowing down, asking great questions will help you clarify hey, is this really a capacity thing, or is this just them reacting to this is a change and I don't want to do it? And so I I would say you don't know until you ask more questions if this is either not the right role for this person, if it's they just need more clarity, or if they genuinely need to grow in their capacity. And how do you do that while you keep moving forward?

SPEAKER_01 25:22

Other questions? Um, when you see there's hurting or blame. Yes, not T, not with a T. Um, hurting or blame displacement in your team, how do you attack those things? Do you attack them like on a group level or you go to the one individuals? And like I guess with hurting specifically, if you're no noticing like kind of a group think, how do you address that within yourself? And how do you address that within the individuals?

SPEAKER_04 26:02

Let's take the first question um first. So I would say when you're when you're wanting to correct behavior, um when you're in a group setting, I think it's okay to focus on patterns and themes, but you don't want to call out individual issues. And so if you need to have a one-on-one conversation with somebody who's particularly reacting in a certain kind of way, then you want to deal with that one-on-one, right? We never want to make people feel exposed or unsafe or um uncared for in our shepherding. But if we're noticing like patterns in our team, I think it's okay in a in a meeting to say, hey guys, I'm noticing that when we're when we're broaching change, these are some of the things that come up for us. And I experienced that too in my own self. I just want to put that on the table. Let's let's acknowledge that and recognize that this is counteractive to us being able to make progress in where it is that we're trying to go. So I think those kinds of things are okay. What do you think?

SPEAKER_02 27:02

Yeah, I think you can it's it's hard to like put a formula on it. Um but yeah, I think if it's in a group setting and you feel like it's it's everybody's kind of like moving towards this, I think you just take a moment and you just acknowledge in your mind, you're like, okay, this I'm sold on this. So let me lead into this. Acknowledge the what you see. Yeah, name it. And then I I always like to ask, am I reading that right? Or is that just me? Right.

SPEAKER_04 27:35

Because sometimes it's my insecurity just going, like, I right like I was expecting your excitement level to be at a 10 and you guys are at a six. Yeah, exactly. And so I'm now getting insecure.

SPEAKER_02 27:46

Yeah, or I was expecting your resistance to be at a 10, and your resistance was at a two. And so, like, oh right. Did I really present this correctly? Like, this is a big change. And so I think seeking that like, is it me first is generally where I tend to go. And then in the room, just go, hey, let's talk about it. Let's put it all on the table. Let's go around, let's talk about it right now. Acknowledge that in the moment, and then redirect at the end. I really love that advice. I think it's terrific.

SPEAKER_04 28:11

Yeah. Sometimes those moments can become really powerful too, because you're like inviting people to like explore their feelings. Yes. Why am I feeling this way about this thing? And to be able to talk that builds trust amongst the team.

SPEAKER_02 28:23

So most of the time they'll talk themselves out of it. Like you'll not most of the time, but a lot of the time, they will start to you say, Hey, what do you really feel about that? They'll start to say it, I feel this. And they're like, But actually, if I think about it now that I'm saying it out loud, it's not really how I feel.

SPEAKER_04 28:40

One thing that's always been really helpful for me too is recognizing that like when you're talking about initiating change, framing it in your own mind as like, I'm opening up a discussion. Like when we go into a meeting and we have convinced ourselves that I need to get them from like the zero-yard line to the hundred-yard line, like in this one one-hour meeting, that puts all kinds of pressure on us. And like, you know, 45 minutes have gone by and we're not where we wanted to be because people have questions or they have resistance or whatever. So I just try to frame things in my own mind of like, I'm opening up a discussion about this. And I'll sometimes I'll even say that when I'm initiating change. Hey guys, I want to open up a dialogue about XYZ. Let's talk about this. Here's what I'm seeing, here's where I think we can go. And even just that framing makes it feel like, oh, okay, we're having a discussion.

SPEAKER_02 29:25

Yeah.

SPEAKER_04 29:26

Our defenses start to come down a little bit, you know, and we start to get more exploratory in our thinking versus defensive.

SPEAKER_02 29:33

Yeah. Yeah. And then in regards to the the blame displacement, simple things like, hey guys, let's pause for a second. I actually don't think this is the fault of one person. Really good. Just just say, just say a sentence. Sometimes we we overthink these things of like, how do I purpose like perfectly redirect this room? It's just like, hey, let's just take, let's take a pause. Hey, I don't think this is one person. I think this is a systemic thing. Right. And we need to like dive into our processes to see how we got here rather than what one person did. Because at the end of the day, if one person does one thing and it breaks your entire system, you got a bad system. You got a bad system. Yep. Yep.

SPEAKER_04 30:07

That's really good. All right. Well, that's episode two of For the Love of Leadership. Thanks for listening, everybody. See you next week. Next week, for the love of leadership. God bless.