3. prioritize responsibility over empathy

In this episode of the For the Love of Leadership podcast, Pastors Jake and James unpack a challenging idea from Edwin Friedman’s book A Failure of Nerve: truly healthy leadership prioritizes responsibility over empathy.

They explore how our culture has elevated empathy to a near-superpower and why, if we’re not careful, that can actually keep people stuck instead of helping them grow. Empathy—“feeling into” someone’s emotional state—can be a powerful starting point, but when it becomes the goal, leaders can lose themselves in other people’s emotions and abandon their actual responsibility to lead.

Key ideas in this episode:

• Compassion vs. Empathy
  • Why compassion (“to suffer with”) is Christlike and essential, but modern empathy can slide into emotional fusion and anxiety-sharing
  • Why “no one ever changed just because they felt understood” and why understanding must lead to calling people forward
• Painful vs. Harmful
  • How to distinguish between what is painful for people (change, correction, responsibility) and what is actually harmful
  • Why over-empathizing with people’s pain can unintentionally keep them immature and stall the growth of the whole team
• Self-Differentiated Leadership
  • What it means to be a self-differentiated leader: staying connected to people without being controlled by their emotional state
  • Two sides of differentiation:
    • Self-regulation – managing your own internal anxiety and emotional reactivity
    • Self-definition – being clear on your calling, values, vision, and responsibilities as a leader
  • How this mirrors God’s own stability and consistency, and how Jesus modeled this in His ministry
• Practical Tools and Examples
  • Real-world examples of responding to team members who feel overlooked, frustrated, or disappointed
  • Moving from “I’m sorry you feel that way” to “I hear your disappointment—let’s talk about how you can grow so you’re ready next time”
  • Simple practices: pausing, breathing, listening deeply, asking clarifying questions, and refusing to let others’ anxiety dictate your responses
• The Team You’re On vs. the Team You Lead
  • Why “the team you’re on is more important than the team you lead”
  • How losing sight of this can turn leaders into “protectors” of their people from the organization instead of leaders of their people within the organization

Throughout the conversation, Jake and James connect these leadership concepts to discipleship, spiritual maturity, and the character of God. This episode will help you:

• Care deeply without becoming codependent
• Stay steady when others are anxious
• Lead people toward maturity, not just momentary emotional relief
• Reflect Jesus more clearly in how you handle tension, conflict, and change

If you’re a leader in any context—church, team, workplace, or family—this episode will challenge how you think about empathy, responsibility, and your role in the growth of the people you lead.

Transcript

SPEAKER_02 0:00

Hey, what's up, everybody? Want to take a moment and welcome you to a new internal podcast we are doing called For the Love of Leadership. This is a podcast hosted by myself and Pastor James Crocker, and we're making this available to all the members of Cathedral. The reason we're doing this podcast is because we want to help promote the value of leadership in our church. We want to help you even change the way that you think about yourself as somebody who is worth developing as a leader and to help you grow in your love for your appreciation of the power of good leadership happening in your life. And so we're going to be sending out these episodes weekly on Thursdays, most likely. And we hope that you'll tune in and allow yourself to be challenged and through that allow yourself to grow into all that God has for you. And we're very excited. So enjoy the show. We'll see you around. We're a few episodes in. For the first, I don't know, handful of episodes for a while, we're going to be using this book called A Failure of Nerve by a man named Edwin Friedman. A very unique leadership book. If you've read a lot of leadership books, this is not like any other leadership book I've ever read. And uh it's incredibly insightful. Um, and you could say goes against the grain of maybe the popular culture's understanding of how to thrive, how to do well, how to build things that last. Um and I am really, really enjoying it. Encourage you, grab the book. I think it's it's it's very, very helpful. Not written strictly from a Christian perspective. Uh I believe he was Jewish. Um, so there is definitely a spiritual perspective in there. He was a family psychologist, so he brings a lot of good brain science um into the mix and uh just very, very helpful stuff. So today, for episode three, we're delving into some uh testy waters, if you will. And the title of the episode is Prioritizing Responsibility Over Empathy. Prioritizing responsibility over empathy. That might even ruffle a few feathers just by saying the title of the episode. Our culture is very indoctrinated into being empathetic and seeing empathy as almost a superpower as a necessary part of relating to other people. Um and Friedman has some challenging ideas to throw into the mix here. I guess off the top, I would say we're not um in any way undermining the importance of compassion. Correct. Obviously, Jesus was very compassionate. Yes. Compassion means to suffer with, or even sympathy to feel with. Yes. Empathy means to feel into. The background behind the word is uh is actually very recent. It cropped up in the 20th century originally in the art space with the idea of uh putting yourself in what you create, to feel into. Um and what Friedman wants to say is that oftentimes empathy becomes a mask for anxiety, where we think that the best way to deal with people's pain, people's emotions is to feel ourselves all the way into their state. Yes. Because we think that that's how we help people move forward. And he wants to say, actually, that's how you lose yourself, and it actually keeps you from being able to, as a leader, remain self-differentiated. Yeah. This is the phrase that we've been using, and we'll continue to define that more and more. And when you lose that self-differentiation, you can't actually lead people out of their feelings towards growth personally and also the team that you're leading into the fullest of its potential.

SPEAKER_04 3:47

Yeah, exactly. I think one of the reasons why this book is so challenging is because it challenges the Western mentality around leadership that we have been indoctrinated into. And so we're constantly told that um being empathetic at a leader means understanding people's feelings, validating their experiences, and meeting them where they are. And there's some truth in that. Absolutely. Empathy matters, it allows people to feel seen, it allows you to build trust with people, it opens a door for an honest conversation. But empathy, like defined just a moment ago, puts you into something, but it doesn't take you out of it. And so empathy alone can't move people forward. Right.

SPEAKER_02 4:23

So he the way he would say is that no one ever changed just because they felt understood.

SPEAKER_04 4:29

Exactly. So if empathy becomes a goal instead of the starting point for a leader, then leaders unintentionally trap people in their current emotional state. Yes, that's one of the hardest things.

SPEAKER_02 4:42

Yes, exactly. So the solution to that is to prioritize responsibility. And what we mean by that is I guess to prioritize your duty as a leader, to prioritize your role as a leader rather than prioritizing people's emotional state and giving that the priority over your role, your responsibility in your leadership position.

SPEAKER_04 5:03

Yeah, because your your job as a leader is not to manage their emotions. And that's what empathy puts you in a place to do. Right. So instead of helping people grow, um, we want to help people become responsible for feeling their feelings and using those as indicators so that they can move forward. Great.

SPEAKER_02 5:18

Why does this matter? It matters because when we prioritize responsibility over empathy, this is what actually helps people under your leadership grow. And this is what actually helps the team that you lead reach its goals, reach its potential, operate at the highest level that it can. As we said a moment ago, people don't grow simply because you've understood them. They they grow. Why? Because they see a standard that's exemplified by you as a self-differentiated person, and they see that that standard is worth attaining to. So you become, because you've differentiated yourself from their state of emotion, you become something they can look to as a guiding light out of where they currently are. Even if your standard is at odds with what they feel. Yes. Okay, so this is really important. One of the things that he says that I found so insightful is there is a difference between something being painful and something being harmful. Very good. And many times people's emotional state in response to change that we initiate, vision that we cast, um, correction that we provide, their emotional response to that is because that correction, that vision, that change is painful. But just because it's painful for them doesn't mean it's harmful to them. In fact, what is harmful to them is to overly empathize with the pain that they feel and allow them to use that as an excuse to stay the same or to hijack the team from moving forward. That's what's really harmful. Whereas sometimes we need to let people feel their pain, but then lead them through that uh by prior, how? By us prioritizing our responsibility as leaders to go, yes, I understand your pain, but here's where we're going. Here's what needs to change. Does that make sense?

SPEAKER_04 7:03

Yeah, one of the things that he says is uh he makes it really clear that uh empathy may be a luxury for people who don't have to make tough decisions, but tough decisions often cause pain to others. Yes. And that's what leadership is. And so pain is often the pathway to growth. Oh, like pain is your platform. Remember, that was big in the preaching circles.

SPEAKER_02 7:23

Throw back. Throw back.

SPEAKER_04 7:25

But change is painful.

SPEAKER_02 7:26

What do you what do you mean the preaching circles, bro? That was an original thought to me. Oh, yeah, yeah. My bad, my bad, my bad.

SPEAKER_04 7:31

Yeah, you well, I'm just saying you define the preaching circles, like I totally don't know what that's why we're here. Uh, change change is painful, correction is painful, responsibility is painful. Yes. And so none of those things are harmful. And that's the difference that he's making. Yeah. Um matter of fact, those are the very things that someone needs in order to mature, and that is the end goal. Yes. Is the maturity of the person.

SPEAKER_02 7:53

That is the goal. Yes. To help people mature and to help the team reach its goals. Let's go into a little bit of the how. I think we understand why this is important, um, even though it might be difficult to embrace this kind of leadership, um, because sometimes it puts us in a place of friction with those who are struggling to come along the journey. But I think conceptually we get it. How is it that we practice it? I've got kind of a list of you know, brain-dump thoughts here on my notes, but curious if you would want to set it up in any particular way. Hmm. If not, I can jump in.

SPEAKER_04 8:28

Yeah, why don't you jump in and I'll pepper in some stuff.

SPEAKER_02 8:30

Yeah, excellent.

SPEAKER_04 8:31

I'm trying to find it in my notes. It's really my that's my hmm.

SPEAKER_02 8:34

We're fine by the seat of our pants here on For the Love Leadership Sunday. Strategic pants, though. We have lots of notes. Strategic pants. Yeah. Indeed. Okay, so here's one of the things that I want to say. I think um, okay, let's define this term self-differentiated. Because that in a nutshell is the how. That's how you prioritize your responsibility, responsibility as a leader over empathy. You need to be a self-differentiated person. And that's a term that we've had come up quite a bit in the first three episodes, because that's the main theme of this book. Yeah. There's two sides to that coin to be self-differentiated. One is internal, one is external. In other words, one has to do with your own emotional state, and the other has to do with how you interface with others. The internal we can call self-regulation. Am I doing what I need to do to regulate my own emotional health? The other is called self-definition. Do I have clearly defined values? Do I have a clearly defined vision? Basically, have I set my aim? Do I have a North Star as a leader that I come back to when people react to my leadership? Or when people want to maybe to use a strong word, a freedman word, to sabotage progress, the journey forward. That self-definition, my vision, my values. And for us in the kingdom, that's easy, right? Like, okay, we know what we're doing. We're here to fulfill the Great Commission. The way that we say it, cathedral, is we are here to be a church for the glory of Christ, the beauty of the bride, and the good of the city. Have I really embraced that and what that looks like in my own context as a leader? And then again, back to the internal self-regulation, because we're all emotional beings, right? We all have reactivity that's going on the inside of us. And we need to learn the practices to regulate our emotional health so that we are not sharing in the emotional reactivity, but rather we become that non-anxious presence.

SPEAKER_06 10:34

Yes.

SPEAKER_02 10:35

That sense of stability in the midst of maybe shaky ground, right? So that's really important. I was as I was reading about that concept, I thought of something about God. Because scholars will say that God actually possesses qualities that are maybe corollaries to what Friedman is describing there. Self-regulation internal, self-definition external. Scholars will say that God has holiness and that God has glory. And that God's glory is the external manifestation of his inward holiness. So who God is internally, right? And God is and he's nothing but stable. Right? He is, let's say this word, he is integrated, right? There is no instability, no disintegration in God, and his glory is just the outward manifestation of who he is. So we need to have that as leaders. We need to have an inward holiness, an integration, a devotion to self. And that sounds kind of counterintuitive to us as Christians. But when I say devotion to self, what I mean is devotion to responsibility, devotion to who God has called me to be, devotion to the responsibilities, the duties that He's put in my plate in my life as a leader, I need to have that inward holiness. And then my self-definition, my glory is the fact that I show up the same in my leadership relationships, in my context as I am on the inside. Does that make sense?

SPEAKER_04 12:02

Yeah, it's really good. And I think uh I love that correlation because if we focus on self-definition and self-regulation rather than obsessing over other people's emotional states, that is the heart of differentiation. Yes. And I'm so thankful I have a God that's not overwhelmed by my emotional state.

SPEAKER_02 12:20

Really good. Really good. Yes. And how how does the gospel work? The gospel doesn't work by God solving our problems by trying to fix us.

SPEAKER_07 12:30

Right.

SPEAKER_02 12:31

The gospel works by God solving our problems by becoming the self-differentiated version of us.

SPEAKER_07 12:37

Yes.

SPEAKER_02 12:37

He the incarnation, he comes as a man. So and so this is what this is this is the point of responsibility over empathy. I don't actually fix you by focusing on you. I fix you by being a standard that you can look at of the health that is available to you if you will respond responsibly to your own emotional reactivity.

SPEAKER_05 13:01

Yes.

SPEAKER_02 13:02

Oh, I need to say that again. I fix you by being a standard that you can look to of what you can become if you will respond responsibly to your own emotional reactivity. So good. So I don't get here, here's the thing. I don't need, I don't need you to be okay for me to be okay.

SPEAKER_07 13:20

Yes. Very good.

SPEAKER_02 13:21

If if if me being okay is dependent upon you being okay, psychologists have a term for that. That's called codependency.

SPEAKER_07 13:28

Yes.

SPEAKER_02 13:28

Where I actually lose myself in the process of tending to you. And I will not produce fruit in that person's life. Yes. I will not lead them out of immaturity to maturity if I lose myself in fixing them.

SPEAKER_05 13:42

Yes.

SPEAKER_02 13:42

Rather, I need to be secure in who I am, integrated. What's my role? What's my call? What's the mandate from God on my life? Yes. Who am I? And what does it look like for me to live that out as a leader so that you then see something that you can be formed into? Paul would say it like this: follow me as I follow Jesus.

SPEAKER_04 14:04

So good. So good. And um, and this is so important as leaders that we reflect this character of God because he is the rock of ages, immovable. Amen. And uh people are drawn towards stable ground. Yes. So I'm drawn towards Jesus because he is my stability. So although my boat is attached to the rock of ages, I I may sway a little, he's not moving. Right. I'm always coming back to the immovable rock. Yes. Here's why this is important. Go ahead.

SPEAKER_02 14:33

Can I just interrupt you there really quick? I find you're really good at this. Thank you so much. So, um, because the deal is like our nervous systems are going to respond to the things that are happening around us. Like, that's just how it works. Yeah. So, like that inner inner part, that self-regulation. Yeah. Just riff with me for a little bit. Like, how have you managed to do that? Because in your role, you have so many tough conversations. Yeah. And you're often the risk on the receiving end of people's feedback or people's complaints or whatever challenges are cropping up.

SPEAKER_04 15:07

Yeah, I had to learn how to be good at this because in the first I wasn't. I think the codependency part spoke to me when I was reading this. Yeah. One of the things that I wrote down for that is that when feed when leaders feel responsible for fixing everybody else's discomfort, then you begin to adjust the leadership, manage emotions rather than guide growth. So vision becomes negotiable, standards soften, and accountability disappears. And who gets frustrated?

SPEAKER_03 15:29

Right.

SPEAKER_04 15:29

Me. Yes. And so I've been called to build God's house, not my own. And so I have to realize, okay, I've got to lead like him. And so this is good. If I stay calm when other people panic, then they will eventually reflect what I'm doing. Yes. If if I stay steady when others are being resistant, then they'll eventually fall into line because I want to be consistent, like my God is consistent.

SPEAKER_02 15:53

What are some practices that you've done to do that? Because like I know you, I've known you for so many years. Yeah. And I know like you're you can be that calm duck on the surface, but your little you know, leggies are kicking underneath the water. So what have you done to regulate that?

SPEAKER_04 16:08

Yeah, I I find if I'm being completely honest, the one gift of the fruit of the spirit that I consistently ask God for is self-control.

SPEAKER_02 16:16

Really good.

SPEAKER_04 16:16

If you can can you you have control over your face. Yes. You have control over your body. You have 80% of how I communicate with the people in this room right now, because the people that are listening can't see me, is through how I'm sitting here. Right. So most of the time your body is reeking anxiety towards the people that are coming to you who are anxious. And so the moment that they come to you and they're anxious, you have a choice. Your back stiffens, you kind of start kind of looking around, you break eye contact. Yep. I choose to just breathe, listen intensely, and I'd be, I'd be really slow to speak. Really good.

SPEAKER_03 16:51

I love that.

SPEAKER_04 16:52

And that thing alone, if you could just master that, will allow your mind to catch up to whatever your body is physically reacting to the person that's come to you with anxiety. Yes. Because you're you may not realize it and you may not think it. But the moment someone comes to you with anxiety, it's almost infectious. Yes. And so there, your your body starts reacting. You're like, oh, maybe I should be worried about this. 100%. So if you start talking, you're going to be thinking through the lens of I should be worried about this. Right. I choose not to talk. You pause. I choose to listen. I choose to take a breath. And I think in my head, is this something that is going to detrimentally break the world right now?

SPEAKER_02 17:26

One of the things that I love about you is you don't try to prescribe solutions before you fully understand the problem. And oftentimes our anxious reactivity is nothing more than us trying to speak into a problem or a complaint that we actually don't fully understand yet.

SPEAKER_05 17:40

Yes.

SPEAKER_02 17:41

So I love the practice of just pausing, listening, asking questions is another really powerful tool. Yes. Because as you as you do that, I've found that that can just kind of diffuse the tension, diffuse the anxiety. The anxiety hasn't landed with you or hasn't bounced off of you. Rather, you've absorbed it and then you've kind of dismissed it. Yes. Right? Um, so I think that's that's really important. Here's another thing I would say the team you're on is more important than the team you lead.

SPEAKER_07 18:08

Very good.

SPEAKER_02 18:09

The team you're on is more important than the team that you lead. Why is that important? Because as you're leading and you want to prioritize responsibility over empathy, when you when you reverse that, all of a sudden the team you lead becomes more important than the team that you're on. This person's feelings become more important than your duty to the organization in which you serve. And now you've got it backwards. And what I've seen happen in leaders at times is when that goes unchecked, they actually start to think of their role primarily as the protector of their people. Ooh, dangerous. Rather than as the leader of their people who's connecting them to the bigger vision in which they play a part. Healthy cells in a body understand themselves as part of the whole body.

SPEAKER_06 18:55

Yes.

SPEAKER_02 18:55

Unhealthy cells are very self-uh-oriented.

SPEAKER_06 18:58

Yes.

SPEAKER_02 18:59

And they're only about themselves. They don't think about the part they the part that plays to the health of the whole body. And so one way that you can prioritize responsibility and even to help regulate yourself emotionally is just to pause and remember hang on, I'm not alone in this.

SPEAKER_07 19:13

Yes.

SPEAKER_02 19:13

I'm actually part of a greater team, a greater organism, a greater organization, a greater church.

SPEAKER_07 19:18

Yes.

SPEAKER_02 19:18

That I have a responsibility toward, and I've got the backing of the body to help me lead the self.

SPEAKER_04 19:26

Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 19:26

That's really important.

SPEAKER_04 19:27

Yeah, I think that's really good. One of the things that that I try to always remember is what has God put me in this person's life for?

SPEAKER_02 19:34

Great.

SPEAKER_04 19:35

What is the goal of me being a discipler? It's their maturity, it's their growth.

SPEAKER_02 19:42

Right.

SPEAKER_04 19:43

So if you want to be a great leader, and what I love that this book is talking about is you have to embrace something that most people struggle with. And that's being okay when others are not okay. Because growth is painful, but painful is not harmful, like we were just talking about. And so if leaders remove discomfort, then you're removing the very condition that you have been placed in their life to help them navigate for their maturity. Yes. And so if you if you eliminate tension, then you're eliminating purpose on their life. Yes. And so my job is not to help eliminate the tension in your life. My job is to help to help you navigate that. Because that's how you grow. That's how you grow. Yes. That's how you stay moving towards the vision that God has called, not just for whatever team you're a part of, but for your life specifically. It always comes back to the individual. Yes. God uses everything. The move we're going to make to three services in Highland Park, God's going to use that to raise up tension, to grow the individual. Seek your stops.

SPEAKER_03 20:37

Seeding ideas right now. Seeding ideas.

SPEAKER_04 20:39

We're going to add, we're going to add a beep into the podcast. In time, in time. In time. Responsibly. In God's timing. Yeah, yeah. But it will bring up tension. We could be abundantly ready. It will bring up tension in somebody's life. And the purpose of that brings up tension. Is to grow that person. Yes. How do I comfortable trusting God? How do I be comfortable trusting my position in this church is not going to change. My value's not going to change. Yes.

SPEAKER_02 21:01

Am I secure? That's what people are really.

SPEAKER_04 21:02

Am I secure?

SPEAKER_02 21:03

Am I secure?

SPEAKER_04 21:04

Yes. I want to help you know. Yes. No matter we could have 432 services, God willing. You're still secure in Christ. I am not sure. Nothing is good personally.

SPEAKER_02 21:13

At least not if I not in one location. Yeah, yeah. So you're reminding me actually of because I was listening to a lecture from um Friedman uh from a couple decades ago. He's passed away now. Uh, but one of the things he talks about is if you could will the immature person to become mature just by wishing it, they wouldn't actually be that mature person. Because it's the process of pain that brings the maturity. If you could will them to be like you in your state of maturity just by wishing it to happen, they wouldn't actually be like you. Because what made you you was the stuff that you had to walk through to get there.

SPEAKER_05 21:47

Yes.

SPEAKER_04 21:48

Very good.

SPEAKER_02 21:49

Let's give some examples.

SPEAKER_04 21:51

Yeah, I I wrote down some um practical examples here that I wanted to share. Um and the first one is this maybe you have. A team leader, a team member comes to you, they're frustrated that they weren't actually asked to be a part of maybe a leadership team or a D group or something along that. They got passed over an opportunity, maybe. So what does empathy say? Empathy says, I'm sorry you feel overlooked. Period. And that's kind of the theme of the conversation. What does responsible leadership look like? It says, hey, I hear you're disappointed. I'm acknowledging how you feel. Yep. Let's talk about these areas that we can develop. So the next time this opportunity comes around, you're ready for the leadership role. Really good. I see this in you as well. And here's the ramp in order for you to get to where God is taking you. Really good. That's the difference. Acknowledge the emotion, guide them towards growth instead of just validating their grievance. That's one of the examples. Really good.

SPEAKER_02 22:49

Yeah, that's great. Let's do this. Let's we could give some more examples, but I think it'd be great just to take a moment and maybe field some questions or even comments that you guys have. Uh, we're here with our paid team right now. And um, any insights that y'all want to share, we welcome or questions that you have. This would be a good moment to do it. Anything coming up for you guys?

SPEAKER_00 23:05

I feel like this is just so helpful. It is so helpful, but um, I think that comment of the team you're on is more important than the team you lead is so uh just just really good to have in your mind as a leader to not um get, I don't know. I I think you can get so siloed in your in your position. I feel that so often. I feel that temptation so often to be siloed in your position, but then you don't remember that it's like I have a I have a responsibility to my pastors, I have a responsibility to my team that I'm on. So I can't get, I can't go all the way down to the lowest level. I have to continually be brought up. I I don't know if that makes sense. Like I have to have my eyes be lifted up again. Um, and that's like so simple. I I feel like it's so simple to write off. Like there was a specific scenario of like, oh, I had a dinner plan with Pastor James and Kirsten, and we let something that was 911 get on our calendar instead of holding that, instead of holding that appointment with them, which would have been wind in our sails and also just reminding us the place that we're at. Um, and that is like, I don't know, it's super convicting to me to just be like, I'm not going to let an unhealthy cell, I don't know, like yeah, dictate the whole thing. It's super helpful.

SPEAKER_04 24:41

Really, really good. Yeah. And it it's not about um, it's not just about loyalty, high, it's not about hierarchy or something like that. For me, what it's about is just about alignment with vision. One of the most consistent things that happens with brand new pilots, shout out to Wes Shimako. What's up, Wes? Is that they'll enter into a storm where there's zero visibility and they won't trust their instruments. So they'll make small tweaks. They have a horizon line, something that no matter what, will always go to the horizon. That's not right. I don't feel like I'm level. I don't feel like I'm like a small, small adjust. You would be surprised at the amount of new pilots that come out of a storm completely upside down on the plane. Because they didn't trust their instruments. They didn't trust their instruments. And one of the things that you're the team that you're on is it's their they're your level set. They're your horizon lines. Really good. No matter the storm that you're facing, you're they're your horizon line. They're the ones that go, hey, not only like they remind you of the vision, they remind you of the mission, but they also encourage you. Yes. And they lift you up. Yes. And in those moments, they're getting as much from that as you are receiving as well. Because that is the point of the team. They're reminding you of the purpose, they're reminding you of who you are. Because our goal is to take people into the storm and not get lost in the storm.

SPEAKER_02 25:53

Leaders need to go up in their conversations just as much as they go down in in an organizational structure. Um, and without that, you just lose perspective 100%. So yeah. Other questions or comments? Sarah?

SPEAKER_01 26:10

That example that you gave, Pastor James, of the way to go about that conversation with the team member feels so challenging, but just reminds me like why I'm so grateful for our acronym of BIG and that reminder, because I feel like what you're describing is like that takes a lot of intentionality. Because it takes me actually thinking about a conversation before I go into it, or even again being in the conversation and being able to ask, okay, what do I see for this person? What do I see that's a ceiling? Or what do I see that's holding them back? Like when you mentioned being able to speak to them about like, hey, let's work on these areas of growth so that the next time this opportunity comes around, you're able to step into this well and receive it and thrive and grow. And I feel like that just challenges me so much. Like, okay, am I am I seeing more for my people, for the people that God has entrusted to me, or am I just seeing them for what they can accomplish or produce or get done versus like, am I seeing them and their character? Am I seeing them and their family? Am I seeing them in their relationships? Like, am I looking at all this? And I think even just remembering that like people exist outside of church as well. And it helps me like, right, this, this, this area of growth matters not just for my team or for our ability to grow. It matters for your marriage and it matters for your parents. A hundred percent. And it matters for your friendships. Like just remembering the whole person, I feel like is what can really help us like lean in and find a bit more courage. But I think, yeah, like seeing people for who God's made them to be and going in intentionally. It just feels like the difference between intentional and reactive.

SPEAKER_07 27:40

Yes.

SPEAKER_01 27:41

And really believing that God has so much for the people he's given to you.

SPEAKER_04 27:46

Yeah. Yeah. Because empathy listens to emotions, but responsibility says, What are we going to do about this? Yes. What are we going to do about this? Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 27:55

Responsibility is the so what?

SPEAKER_04 27:56

A hundred minutes. What are we doing? Yes. Yeah. Acknowledge you feel that way, and how do we move?

SPEAKER_02 28:00

And empathy, as we mo as we understand it in a modern sense, doesn't have that ability to say so what. Because it's it feels like a violation of the of the other.

SPEAKER_07 28:10

Yes.

SPEAKER_02 28:11

To not stay in that place of feeling into. But responsibility has to have a so what. That's compassion. Jesus had compassion on the woman caught in adultery. But he had a so what? Go and sin no more. Has to be that in our leadership. I think that's enough for today's episode of For the Love of Leadership. Thanks for listening, everybody. It's a great joy.